From: dbd@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney)
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Subject: What Bethmo's Said, 12/99-1/00
Date: 18 Feb 2000 13:16:27 GMT
Organization: Formerly U. Tenn. Knoxville/Physics Dept.; presently extremely dis
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Okay; it's time again for another set of minor-question answers we've gotten
from Bethmo (and others, these days; Collin from InQuest and Bill Rose and
Brady Donnermuth are now all active on the netrep list, and sometimes report
new ideas/give answers to questions from her when she's not there) over the
last couple months. This set covers approximately Dec '99 and Jan '00. (Yes,
it's already 2/00; there's always a bit of delay while she looks at it to
make sure stuff is (still) correct.)

GENERAL

1) Triggered mana abilities are -only- those that state directly that they
trigger when a mana ability is used. (Wild Growth, for instance, or Mana
Flare.) Triggered abilities that produce mana go on the stack if their trigger
event is either a time (Black Market, Carpet of Flowers, Thran Turbine, etc.)
.. or an event that's not stated to be a mana ability (Cathodion/Su-Chi, for
instance; it -can- go to the graveyard as part of a mana ability - Ashnod's
Altar/Phyrexian Tower - but doesn't usually, so its ability goes on the stack.
Priest of Gix's ability goes on the stack. Etc.).

2) If you try to deal damage to something that's not a creature or player,
the damage doesn't get dealt at all. (It's not "dealt but ignored because
noncreatures can't be lethally damaged"; it won't trigger "When this deals
damage" abilities at all.)

3) You may play mana abilities whenever you're asked to pay mana ...
including if you're asked, specifically, to pay 0 mana (either by a 0-in-
gray-circle, or by an X-in-gray-circle which you value at 0). You can,
therefore, tap a land for mana while announcing Hopping Automaton's ability
or while announcing a Zuran Orb spell, should you want/need to do so.
   If you're being asked to count up things, and pay mana based on that
number, that's also a zero-in-circle thing; for instance, if Fade
Away is resolving and you control no creatures, you can use a mana ability
right then. "Pay 1 for each Foo" does let you play a mana ability if
there are no Foo in existence; if there aren't any Foo, "pay 1 for each Foo"
gets treated the same as "pay 0". You don't need to pay any cost _but_ can
use mana abilities right then if you like.

4) Creature types must be one word, which can be any creature type that exists
on a Magic card... but which -can't- be the one-word name of a Magic card,
unless that's also specifically a creature type somewhere already. Thus,
"Orgg" is a legal creature type, but "Dawnstrider" is not. (Because Orgg is
itself type Orgg.) "Splinter" is a legal type, because there's another card
that makes "Splinter" tokens, for example. But "Kindle" is not. Any word that's
not a Magic card name and not in the Glossary (or otherwise used as a special
Magic term) is also legal.

5) 409.1d's purpose ("choose how the spell affects each target") is to make
a choice when the spell affects different targets -differently-. So that
opponent would know which target was having what done to it once the spell
has been announced, and can counterspell or otherwise respond already
knowing this. At present, about the only things this =specifically= applies
to are Cannibalize and probably Retribution.

6) Abilities like "~ doesn't tap to attack", "~ doesn't untap during your
untap step", or "<that> can't be regenerated this turn" aren't replacement
effects; rather, they're simple static abilities, or continuous effects, whose
effect modifies how a particular bit of the game works for that card. (Thus, a
Spirit Shackled Serra Angel won't get a counter when it attacks [obvious
example]... and a Merieke Ri Berit or a storage-land that stays tapped won't
lose its Freyalise's Winds wind counter ... and a Skeleton Scavengers, or
Debt of Loyalty-ed creature, that's affected by a Hurr Jackal, won't have
the "other part" of its 'regenerates and does this too' effect happen if
it gets destroyed; it can't be regenerated, so the shield simply doesn't
get to apply. (Rather than replacing the destruction, and only doing the
'other part', leaving it in play untapped, unremoved from combat, with
damage still on it.)

7) If you choose a spell as a source of damage, and the spell will become
a permanent (different from 'will create a token'), the permanent it creates
will also qualify as that same source of damage. So, for instance, you can
use a Circle: Red and name a Ghitu Slinger spell as the red source, and
the shield it sets up would prevent damage from the Slinger's triggered
ability to you when it comes into play later.

8) Replacement effects that replace the drawing of a card can be applied
before each separate card draw in a group of cards being drawn at the
same time; you don't have to 'pick which ones to replace before you draw
any of the three cards' for Ancestral Recall, for instance. (REVERSAL of
an old-time way to look at it.) As a side-effect of this, Field of Dreams will
show -each- card you draw in a group face-up just before you draw it, not
just the first one and the one after you draw the last one; it's got a
continuous effect, and doesn't "wait until you're done drawing them all".

9) Copy cards that can shift forms can't get around "usage restrictions" on
an ability by so shifting; if they change to a form that has the same ability,
any previous uses this turn still count against the total. However: it has
to be -the same- ability to invoke this. Even a change in the card name
stated in the ability will make it a different ability - Azimaet Drake's
ability is different from Drake Hatchling's, for instance, and changing
from one to the other doesn't carry over the "once per turn" restriction.

10) If, for some odd reason, a Sorcery or Instant card is told it is to be
put into play, it can't be; it will stay in the zone it's attempting to move
from, instead. (Only relevant for a particularly twisted combo involving
Mask of the Mimic and a copy card copying a Splinter token, and for Spatula
of the Ages, right now.)

11) Landwalk, as the rulebook notes, looks for -lands- of the specified type.
If your last Island has become a nonland somehow, you can't be Islandwalked
on for it just because it's named "Island". (We're still checking on what
this will do to an "If you control no islands" condition though.)

12) The rule that says "When players need to make choices simultaneously,
active player makes theirs first, then opponent does" is to be interpreted
as "active player makes theirs first, -lets opponent know what they are-,
then opponent makes choices based on that information". It's not meant to
be a game of 'guess what I chose', and it's not meant to be "make the
choices separately but secretly, then reveal the -choices- to each other
simultaneously". Thus, opponent knows what card was chosen by active player
for Show and Tell before choosing one themselves.
   Note that choices related to putting the cards -into play- would be made
after revealing the cards ... so there can be a second set of 'active player
chooses where to put -their- enchantment, and tells opponent, then opponent
chooses which creatures to sac for -their- Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and tells
active player, then they both do this' after the cards are actually revealed.
For instance.
   Related to this - there is a Myth sweeping around various places that
this rule somehow applies to players -losing the game- via state-based effects.
This is -not- true; if both players are below 1 life, or have both drawn
more cards than they have, or one has twelve poison counters and the other
is below 1 life, etc., when state-based effects are checked for, the game
is a draw; over-Earthquaking does _not_ "cause active player to lose first",
or anything like that.

13) Abilities on a card, which trigger if the card deals damage, will -not-
trigger unless that card is -in play- at the time the damage is dealt. Thus,
a Hypnotic Specter's ability won't trigger if it got Unsummoned in response
to combat damage - it's not there when the damage is -dealt-, even though
the damage is from it. The trigger is not 'attached to the damage' in any way.
   "At the time the damage is dealt, you look at all the existing
triggered abilities to see if any of them want to trigger from this event.
You don't look at abilities that no longer exist."

14) The "last known values" rule does remember, along with the characteristics
of a permanent that was in play, whether the permanent was tapped or untapped
-and- who controlled the permanent at the time it left play. (Important for,
say, a Flung Maro... or a Diamond Valley-ed Giant Tortoise. For instance.)
The rulebook -does- say that it remembers "information" about the card/token,
not just "its characteristics".

15) If a loop happens to come into existence that requires entire -turns- to
run, and needs both players taking certain actions to keep it going, then
in general either can choose to be the first to break it, at the appropriate
point; if neither one wants to, the game will end up a draw if nothing else
happens. And if neither one is taking actions (both have Necropotence or
Abundance out so they're not going to be decked), and they both claim it's
not a draw because they're specifically not repeating actions or sequences
of actions, a judge in the tournament -can- claim justification for citing
both of them for stalling. (Probably 'warning-and-game-loss', depending on
enforcement level. Arguing with the judge can make this penalty worse, in
the usual manner...)
   [In other words, the -best- result you're going to get in a tournament
out of this tactic is a drawn game; you're not going to _win_ a game by
creating a loop, ever, and might end up with one or more game -losses- in
the process...]

16) If a modal spell/ability has some portion that applies in more than one
mode, it will be written after the "modal sentence" - after the "Choose one
- X; or Y; or Z; or Q" part. Thus, if one mode ends with "This can't be
countered", that applies only to that one mode; if one mode has "Play this
only during combat" and the others don't, the other modes are playable
outside of Combat phase; etc. But if the "Choose one - " sentence ends, and
then there's another sentence, the last applies to all the modes; for
instance, none of Gilded Drake's ability's modes can be countered.

17) If, while evaluating -continuous- effects, you get that one with a
duration ends because of other continuous effects, you evaluate with that
one left out; it won't 'restart because of further effects'. This is a
technical complicated little note for gurus; the example to explain what's
being talked about here would be an Old Man of the Sea which is trying to steal
a Maro, but finds the Maro is too big to hold onto if the new player controls
it. The Old Man taps, and tries to apply its "My controller controls you as
long as your power isn't greater than mine" effect, and finds that if it is
applied it ends immediately ... so the Maro never changes sides (and doesn't
become 'sick' in the process).

18) The event "a player gets priority" includes, always, as subsidiary events,
the check for state-based effects and the putting of triggered abilities on
the stack. After a check for state-based effects reveals that there are
applicable ones, and they're dealt with, you always insert another such check;
after triggered abilities are placed on the stack, you also check again for
state-based effects (though there should never, or almost never, -be- new ones
at that point) and then check again for new triggered abilities (say, a
triggered ability has targetted a Skulking Ghost). Repeat until no new
state-based effects apply _and_ no new triggered abilities appear, then the
player can actually now do something.
   In other words, technically state-based effect checks and putting triggered
abilities on the stack are the first -parts- of "player gets priority"; they
happen before the player actually can add a spell or ability to the stack,
always, though. The player only "has" priority at the end of "player gets
priority", in other words; he can only add a spell or ability to the stack, or
play a mana ability, once he actually "has" priority, as the last part of
"getting" it. This is more a "use the right wording" thing than anything else...

SPECIFIC CARDS:

1) If a card that has "When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
.." gets put into play through Desertion, the ability doesn't trigger. The
intent is for that ability to trigger if it appears as a result of being
played from your hand (if it appears in play as the last part of resolution,
as usual for creature/artifact/enchantment spells). If it appears in play
because Desertion's effect puts it into play, this won't trigger the ability.
(Relevant for the Eight Errataed "free" Cards, mainly.)

2) For Deflection, Misdirection, and the other "choose a new target for
this spell/ability" spells and abilities, you pick the new target on
resolution. (On announcement you just pick the target of the Deflection /
Misdirection / whatever.) If there are no -other- legal targets at that time
for the spell/ability, the target-changing effect does nothing; the target
stays what it originally was.

3) The ten dual lands, and the effect of Blanket of Night, do -not- give
"additional names" to a card. Thus, a Bayou is a swamp and a forest, but
is not "also named Swamp and also named Forest"; a Blanketed land is also
a swamp, but doesn't receive an additional name - just the land type "swamp"
and the additional mana ability "Tap: add B to your mana pool".

4) As worded, if you Amnesia yourself, you do -not- have to reveal your hand.
Opponent may, if this happens, invoke a judge, if they want to make sure you
only kept land cards in your hand.

5) Any card that is or becomes a basic land _does_ get the appropriate mana
ability, and is treated as having the appropriate mana symbol, for Celestial
Dawn's purposes ... thus, CD changes the -symbol- to W, regardless of whether
it's making the land into a plains or not.

6) Crumbling Sanctuary's Oracle text has been tweaked so that it replaces
each point of damage separately; thus, you can use it on some points in
a "chunk" of damage from one source, then apply an appropriate Circle's
existing shield to the rest, if you like, for example.

7) Undiscovered Paradise, with its new Oracle wording, will return to your
hand regardless of what type choice you make for Storage Matrix. Neither one
is a replacement effect - neither uses "instead" or "prevent" - they both
just modify the mass untap... so they don't interfere with each other.
Specifically, you can't have one 'replace UP's part of the mass untap' and
then have the other not apply because the UP's untap was replaced... because
neither one -replaces- "untapping UP" with another action.

8) If, for some reason, your Parallax Wave/Nexus/Tide used to have some
other form, and removed cards from the game in that form ... then when it
leaves play being a Wave/Nexus/Tide, it -will- bring back the cards it
removed in the other form. (They do not say "removed from the game in
this way" or anything like that.) However, this requires copy cards -and- an
Intense Effort to do in the first place, so shouldn't be worried about too
much by regular players...

9) The Licids' "I am a creature enchantment" effect has been Ruled to not
have a 'duration', and thus will still be in effect after a Licid-enchantment
phases out and back in again. (See 4) below; some discussion on aspects of
phasing is taking place, and a few answers are showing up even without the
full rules in the Older Rules Appendix being available yet.) Note that the
Licid won't be an enchantment -card- while phased out, but will phase back in
"still an enchantment", still affected by its "I am an enchantment" effect.

10) Intervene uses the 'last known value' rule; if target spell's target
is -missing-, Intervene can still counter the spell if the target -was-
a creature when it left play. (If the targets are all still there but none
of them are creatures, Intervene can't be used/will get countered itself.)
Thus "Fireball you and this creature / Intervene the Fireball / Unsummon
the creature", in response to each other, still ends up with the Fireball
countered; its missing target -was- a creature when last seen.

11) Yes, as worded, Necropotence -does- stop a tapped Mana Vault from dealing
its damage to you.

12) Elvish Spirit Guide's ability is keeping its "Play this only any time you
could play an instant"; this makes it a mana ability with a play-time
restriction, exactly like Lion's Eye Diamond's ability.

13) Hecatomb's Oracle wording -is- correct; they aren't going to be rewording
it anything like Phyrexian Dreadnought. Yes, you may use the second ability
before the "sacrifice four creatures or sac Hecatomb" ability resolves (making
it usable as sort of a more expensive, no-life-gain, but
divided-any-way-you-like Drain Life).

14) If Gilded Drake's target-creature-opponent-controls becomes illegal in
response, then the ability won't get countered on resolution (because it says
it can't be), but 413.2a says it can't -affect- the illegal target at all. So
the target won't be able to be exchanged ... so the exchange won't take place,
and you'll sacrifice the Drake. You won't 'exchange them despite the target
being illegal because you then do all of it'; the rules say you can't quite do
all of it, so you do what you can of the effect.

STILL THINKING (questions we know are being dealt with but whose answers
aren't back to us yet):

1) Whether permanents "keep" their subtypes hidden somewhere if they change
to another type of permanent. (If your creature gets Soul Sculptored, then
Opalescence affects it, does its original creature type "show through" or
not? And the like.)

2) [Dealt with in the Rulings post adjacent to this; "may" triggered abilities.]

3) Fork's specific wording.

4) Copy card rules, and phasing rules, in general; these -are- going to appear
when the Older Rules Appendix does - but the time isn't quite yet, it seems.
Go ahead and use the 5E rules, except without the "can't copy a card that's
only that type due to an effect" part, until then... Discussion on possible
changes, and the possible Horrible Ramifications thereof, -has- been quite
active in a couple places, so don't despair.

5) Damage-prevention effects - whether "prevent all damage from" applies
separately to each point or not. ("Prevent the next damage from <source>"
applies to the whole 'chunk' of damage at once, and "Prevent the next N damage
to <this>" applies point by point, we do know both of those.)

6) Continuous effects: do dependent effects move to after what they depend on,
or do the independent ones get 'shoved back to before' the ones that depend
on them?

7) Cursed Totem versus "subabilities" - delayed activated abilities that
show up as "(may) do A to do B" text.

OTHER:

1) The yearlong expansion after Masques will be named "Invasion", it appears.
(The small expansion after Nemesis will be named "Prophecy".)

Dave